Cooperation and Potentialities Beyond Borders
Please accept YouTube cookies to play this video. By accepting you will be accessing content from YouTube, a service provided by an external third party.
If you accept this notice, your choice will be saved and the page will refresh.
-------------------------------
Accept YouTube cookies to play this video. By accepting, you will be accessing content from YouTube, a service provided by third parties.
If you accept, your choice will be saved and the page will refresh.
In this twelfth Great Interview, we delved into the trajectory and vision of Ambassador Gustavo Martins Nogueira, representative of Brazil in Tanzania who shared his rich personal experience, from the corridors of diplomacy to his current position as Ambassador.
Ambassador Gustavo Nogueira shared his impressions about the Brazilian presence in Tanzania, highlighting his role as a diplomat with extensive experience, including in multilateral organizations such as the IAEA. He emphasized the importance of nuclear energy for the peaceful development of Brazil and its contribution to areas such as medicine and agriculture.
He also addressed the growing acceptance of nuclear energy as a clean alternative to the challenges of climate change and discussed his diverse diplomatic trajectory, highlighting experiences in India, the OAS and electoral observation missions, emphasizing the importance of democracy and international cooperation.
Regarding bilateral cooperation with Tanzania, he highlighted initiatives such as the Beyond Cotton program, aimed at agricultural development and efforts to promote trade and investment between the countries. He also mentioned the relevance of cultural exchange and literature in building ties between nations.
Furthermore, Mr. Ambassador addressed socio-economic and political issues in Tanzania, praising its stability, highlighting challenges such as education and employment of the young population, pointing out the importance of reducing mutual ignorance and intensifying cooperation efforts to take advantage of the existing potential between Brazil and Tanzania.
At the end of the interview, he expressed gratitude for the opportunity to discuss bilateral relations and wished the magazine and our future projects success.
Prepare yourself for a peculiar vision from an excellent conversationalist, whose work promotes a solid and sustainable partnership between Tanzania and Brazil.
Join us in this fascinating conversation and find out what you don't expect...
The interview
Francisco Santos (FS): First of all, I would like to thank you for your willingness to give us this interview and, to begin with, could you introduce yourself a little to our followers, telling us who you are and telling us a little about your professional journey until you reach your current position? as Brazilian ambassador to Tanzania?
Gustavo Nogueira (GN): Very good, thank you very much. It is a pleasure to participate in this conversation with you and to be able to share some impressions here about our presence in Tanzania. I am Gustavo Nogueira, the Brazilian ambassador here in Tanzania. I am a career Diplomat at Itamaraty, with almost 30 years of experience. And currently serving here in Dar-es-Salam, Tanzania.
Vanessa Africani (VA): Mr. Ambassador, I would first like to thank you for your presence. Thank you very much for your participation and your time.
Clearly, you have extensive experience as a Diplomat, but there is a position that you held that made me curious, which was that of Brazil's alternative representative at the International Atomic Energy Agency and in the preparatory commission for the organization of the Complete Test Ban Treaty nuclear. Can you elaborate a little on this subject?
(GN): With pleasure. This was my most recent position before taking over here at the embassy in Tanzania. Brazil, finally, obviously has representation not only bilaterally, but also in multilateral organizations, as is the case of the IAEA and the preparatory commission for the CTBT, there in Vienna, Austria, where these organizations are based.
The focus of the work at the IAEA is precisely nuclear energy, but it is the use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes and this is a vast field of great interest, of great importance for Brazil and for contributing to the country's development, not only in energy generation.
As we know, Brazil already has nuclear energy in Angra 1 and 2 and is in the process of building the third Plant, Angra 3, but also using nuclear technologies for a very wide range of uses.
Both in agriculture, medicine and in different areas. In the area of Medicine, for example, it is possible to mention the increasing importance of Nuclear Medicine, the use of radionuclides to treat chronic diseases, for example, in the area of Oncology. So, all these issues are very important for the country's development, not just in energy generation, but for the use of other technologies.
However, as this is a very sensitive technology, which is uranium, it is necessary to have a very specific system to control stocks of this material, and that, finally, is where the International Atomic Energy Agency comes in, and therefore , there we have this role.
Brazil is one of the few countries in the world that dominates the entire nuclear fuel cycle. Brazil has uranium ore and can process all uranium ore until it becomes fuel for our plants. Anyway, it's a very broad topic, different from what I'm doing today, but this change of portfolio depending on the place where you are serving is part of the diplomatic experience.
(FS): It's an interesting portfolio change, when I finished high school and wanted to go to University, what I wanted to pursue was exactly nuclear energy.
Unfortunately in Angola, at that time we were dependent on the state, because at the time there were no universities, they sent us abroad to complete our courses and they needed chemical engineers, so my nuclear energy became Chemical Engineering.
But it's something that I've always loved and I follow and I'm aware of it and I'm one of those who think that Green energy is a possibility, unfortunately a lot of people continue to think that it's dangerous, that this is what that is, in short, a lot has already evolved, but the myths continue.
(GN): It is important to have mentioned this aspect. Because in fact nuclear energy has increasingly emerged as a clean energy alternative, it is not renewable, but it is clean, it is a Low Carbon energy, which, as we all know, the world is facing.
The Great Challenge of climate change and the need to realign energy sources to cleaner sources, to finally contain the advance of climate change. And there is increasing recognition of the role that nuclear energy can play in this Panorama of changing the profile of the energy matrix of countries.
The International Atomic Energy Agency has even been participating for three or four years in the annual COP meetings that discuss the topic of energy transition. In other words, before there was in fact, as you mentioned, a very strong rejection and resistance to nuclear energy as part of the solution.
Today there is a more sophisticated understanding that it is necessary to consider an energy transition package that includes greater nuclear generation.
Just look at what is being done by countries that have invested in this, I mean, China has been growing a lot and quickly recognized the challenge associated with the volume of emissions due to economic growth based on coal, which began to invest increasingly heavily in nuclear energy and today it is one of the countries with the largest number of plants in operation or under construction.
Other European countries have also taken the decision, France for example, I think that 80% of the energy generated in France comes from nuclear energy and there is this perception in several countries that to ensure that mission reduction and transition goals will be achieved for Cleaner sources of energy you cannot give up nuclear energy as part of the Mix.
(FS): I was reading your biography to ask these questions, I was reading your entire journey, you went through the United States of America, Austria, India, Zimbabwe, Malawi, Mozambique, you studied at Georgetown University, you did a master's degree at Tokai University in Japan.
Anyway, you traveled halfway around the world and my question is very simple: how do these trips and contacts help you in your current role as ambassador of Brazil in Tanzania?
(GN): Thanks for the question. In fact, it is a varied trajectory with, in short, very different responsibilities depending on the country in which he served at each time.
With regard to my current duties as a representative of Brazil to the government of Tanzania, I would say that the most relevant aspect is the accumulated experience regarding the Tools that are available for deepening bilateral relations between Brazil and Tanzania.
That is to say, throughout this career, I was able to act in different positions and perceive the Wide Range of possibilities for rapprochement, both with regard to commerce, investments, human and cultural rapprochement, in short, reducing the lack of knowledge that exists between the Brazil and Tanzania.
And therefore, I would say that a central aspect that this professional experience brings me is precisely the knowledge of the tools that are available for this.
(GO): Mr. Ambassador, your professional career began at the Brazilian Ministry of Foreign Affairs in 1997 and at that moment you are Brazil's ambassador to Tanzania. Throughout your journey, what do you consider to be the most memorable or challenging moment of your diplomatic career?
(GN): Well, this is a very broad question, there have always been different moments, each country and each experience had its peculiarities.
India, for example, is a fascinating country, but also very challenging due to its cultural distance from Brazil and also due to the country's own size, a country with 1 billion 400 million people and an ancient history. So it was very challenging and very remarkable to be exposed to a culture so different from ours.
But there are other moments like this too. Still at the beginning of my career working in the Brazilian delegation to the OAS, the Organization of American States, I was able, for example, to participate in electoral observation missions in our region.
These were very interesting experiences to understand the importance rightly attributed to the legitimacy of democratic processes in our region and how much the parties and political forces involved in these projects in each of the countries appreciate the support of the International Community to observe and ultimately endorse the legitimacy and smoothness of the process.
So that was also another very interesting aspect. After all, elections are a common circumstance in all Democratic countries and questions regarding the fairness of the electoral process always occur.
So any tool that allows you to contribute to strengthening this perception that the democratic process has been well conducted is always positive. And I also had so many previous experiences here in Africa, which were always very memorable, so there is a wide range.
(FS): Mr. Ambassador, since you mentioned Africa, let's talk a little about exactly what brings us here in a certain way. Now that we've gotten to know him a little better, let's talk specifically about his position as Ambassador to Tanzania.
I'm sincere. I don't know much about what has been done in Tanzania, for example, I was reading here a while ago about the Beyond Cotton program, in which Brazil is one of the partners, but I found little else. The question I ask is simply this: what plans and objectives have you established to strengthen relations between Brazil and Tanzania during this period in which you will be Ambassador there.
(GN): Well, thanks for the question and thanks for mentioning the Beyond Cotton program, it is indeed a project we are proud of. Brazil has this very important tool, which is the Brazilian Cooperation Agency, which is linked to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and is responsible for implementing development cooperation projects in the south-south aspect with the profile and characteristics that Brazil attributes. .
In countries like Tanzania, what can be seen, for example, is the great importance of the agricultural sector. The agricultural sector here is responsible for 25% of the country's GDP and employs around 80% of the population, so developing and improving the agricultural sector is a relevant aspect for economic development and improving the social well-being of the Tanzanian people.
So a priority established for the Brazilian embassy in Tanzania and which I seek to stimulate and leverage and which is part of the objectives of my management is precisely to continue contributing to Brazil's sharing of agricultural techniques that allow for the improvement of productivity in the Tanzanian agricultural sector.
This is based on the developments that Brazil has achieved over the last few decades with all the research and development efforts carried out by Embrapa.
Tanzania has its own Agricultural Research Institute, TARI (“Tanzania Agriculture Research Institute”), which is a very consolidated institution with a presence throughout the Tanzanian territory and is a very receptive partner for the initiatives that Brazil has presented, including Beyond Cotton.
There is also Cotton Victória and other initiatives in terms of agricultural cooperation, so cooperation in the area of agriculture is a relevant aspect of the embassy's activities.
But naturally there are other equally important aspects that we have sought to highlight and advance in terms of trade and investments. For example: there are currently some Brazilian companies operating in Tanzania and the Embassy has sought to contribute to facilitating dialogue between these companies and Tanzanian partners in whatever way we can and we have also sought to encourage commercial rapprochement.
Last year, for example, trade between Brazil and Tanzania more than doubled, reaching around 80 million dollars, mainly due to a sugar shortage here in the region that has stimulated an increase in sugar imports Brazilian to Tanzania. Ultimately, development cooperation is one aspect, trade and investment is another aspect.
And we also have, naturally, an aspect of political coordination, rapprochement between country leaders and dialogue between different spheres of government. In fact, I am very happy to know about the active role of Ambassador Adelardus Kilangi, who is the Tanzanian ambassador in Brasília, with whom we have also had a lot of contact precisely in this joint effort to deepen bilateral contacts in all possible aspects.
(GO): Mr. Ambassador, considering the growing importance of Africa on the international scene, how do you see the potential for growth in trade and investment between Brazil and African countries, in particular with Tanzania?
(GN): Well, there's a lot of potential. Tanzania has been growing a lot and presenting increasingly positive and stimulating economic figures. Just last Friday, Moody's, one of the international rating agencies, raised Tanzania's rating to B1.
This means that the country is getting closer and closer to investment grade, which naturally facilitates access to cheaper international credit and encourages foreign investors to consider Tanzania as a potential investment destination.
Furthermore, the very nature of the work being carried out by President Samia Suluhu Hassan is fundamental. At the moment, she is the only female president on the entire African continent.
She has done very important work in opening up the country's economy, taking on the responsibility of presenting Tanzania to the world. This is a very important thing. She has made great use of presidential diplomacy, receiving foreign leaders and traveling herself to different parts of the world to encourage greater knowledge about the potential available here.
Naturally, what still needs to be done is to explore this potential, identify the specific interests that could be served by the opportunities that exist. President Samia Hassan has also done a very important, more difficult, more delicate and more gradual job of readjusting the country's cultural expectations.
Of course, we are talking about a region and a country with atavistic beliefs, with attitudes towards women, with attitudes towards minorities, which are still very difficult to overcome. Tanzania, for example, has a serious challenge with child marriage. Girls here are forced to get married at a very early age for an ancient cultural reason.
President Samia is a strong advocate of keeping children in school, keeping girls in school, and ensuring education and employment opportunities for women as well. In other words, there is a lot of work on gender issues that has been led by the president herself.
And, of course, as President of the Republic, seeking precisely to demonstrate and inspire Tanzanian girls to aspire to a future of greater autonomy and independence.
(FS): I'm glad you mentioned the cultural aspect. I'm glad there is a female president who cares about other women in Africa. Unfortunately, it is a scourge. But Africa also has a very rich and vast culture, especially in Tanzania. Tanzania is known internationally, largely also because of the Massai, because the Massai are known throughout the world.
And then, ironically, we have the problem of Swahili, where people outside of Africa think that all of Africa is spoken Swahili, because in the movies they only speak Swahili. Therefore, there is a rich culture in Tanzania even in gastronomy.
I love gastronomy and I've already been researching the dishes and they are very interesting dishes. But the question I'm going to ask doesn't come from the ease of, if you've already tried dishes, learned to speak Swahili and the usual things, no.
I actually want to know specifically, because I am very connected to culture and therefore it is a very important topic for me, what strategies do you intend to implement there, obviously through the embassy in Tanzania, to encourage cultural exchange?
Because Brazil is also a very culturally rich country, so what do you have planned or what plans do you have to encourage this cultural exchange between these two culturally rich countries?
(GN): Well, thanks for the question. Cultural exchange is indeed a very rich and fascinating aspect of dialogue between nations, because it is precisely there that we perceive and find the specificities of each culture, but also the universality, what we have in common.
In the case of Tanzania, in particular, I would start by saying that the contacts of this region here in Tanzania with Portuguese-Brazilian culture predate the discovery of Brazil itself.
This is because in Camões' Lusíadas, describing Vasco da Gama's journey along the African coast, the first Portuguese contacts with the Muslim populations that lived on the islands off the coast of Tanzania, such as the island of Pemba and the island of Zanzibar. So, cultural contacts between Tanzania and Portuguese-Brazilian culture already come from there.
In fact, when he talked about Swahili, there is this view of the importance of Swahili in the region, because Swahili is not only spoken in Tanzania. Swahili is a language that fuses several elements of Arabic with traditional African Bantu elements, but including Portuguese elements from that initial moment of contact.
In Swahili, the word for shoes is “sapato”, in Swahili, the word for a table is “mesa”, and the people you have around you, in your family, in Swahili, is a family.
So, it is a language very close to Portuguese in these aspects. Another very interesting anecdote is that today, when people talk about the names of countries in Swahili, the names of the countries in Swahili are usually easily identifiable. You don't need to speak Swahili to understand what country we're talking about.
In Swahili, for example, there is the country called “Marekani”, as Americans call it. So, it's the United States, or “Uingereza” is the English. The country “Uingereza” is the United Kingdom, the country “Ujerumani” is Germany.
However, in this whole panel there is a country that is Portugal, which has a name that is difficult to associate, because the name for Portugal in Swahili is “Ureno”. When I was initially informed of this, I asked myself: but where did this designation come from? “Ureno”, when all the country names are so much closer.
And I studied this further and discovered that it is because Portugal began to have contact with the region at the time of the great navigations, and when the Portuguese presented themselves here, they presented themselves as citizens of the country of the Kingdom of Portugal, the Kingdom – “ Urene.”
So, to the Swahili ear, it was: they are members of the “Ureno” Kingdom, the Kingdom of Portugal. In other words, the cultural connection is known to be centuries old, there are several centuries of exchanges of contacts between the countries here.
At the embassy, what we have tried to do to encourage a deepening of this mutual knowledge, in short, has several aspects. There is the aspect, for example, of Brazilian cinema.
We try to publicize it here, especially because we understand that cinema is a very immediate way of transmitting the country's reality and improving bilateral dialogue, and the embassy annually promotes a Brazilian film festival here in Dar-es-Salam. Last year, it took place in November.
We brought several recent Brazilian films and there was great demand, the room was always full. And I participated in these sessions, including questions and answers.
So, in the context of the film's presentation, you can talk a little about what the film will present. For example, one of the films that was presented at the Brazilian film festival here last year was “Marighella” and the historical moment of Brazil going through a military dictatorship.
It is a traumatic time in the country's history, which finds echoes here. In other words, cinema is a possibility.
Cooking is another possibility. Here, we have already received visits from Brazilian chefs for Brazilian cuisine workshops. And I also have plans to encourage greater knowledge and familiarity with the Portuguese language. Brazil is not the only Portuguese-speaking country represented here. We also have an Angolan embassy and a Mozambican embassy.
And I have maintained good contact with my colleagues, the ambassadors of Angola and Mozambique, so that together we can build a dialogue agenda around the CPLP, the community of Portuguese-speaking Countries, and encouraging greater knowledge of the Portuguese language.
Portuguese is one of the languages studied at the Tanzanian Diplomatic Academy, among other reasons why they have a neighbor who speaks Portuguese. Tanzania's southern border is Mozambique. Therefore, there is an important academic interest in the Portuguese language and in dialogue with the Portuguese-speaking world. And we try to encourage this here at the embassy.
(FS): Just an extra question and regarding literature? I don't know much about Tanzanian literature, I know writers from other African countries, but I'm frank, when it comes to Tanzania, I know little. Is there any major literary movement with which you can also have a cultural exchange?
(GN): Tanzania has a Nobel Prize winner for Literature, Abdulrazak Gurnah. He received the Nobel Prize 3 years ago and is a great figure in the Tanzanian literary world, a great testimony to the country's recent history. He is from Zanzibar, Muslim. Tanzania is a country that has a very important Christian presence, but also a Muslim part, especially on the coast.
So it's an important cultural group here. And Abdulrazak Gurnah is a great reference in the country's literature, with a very engaging and interesting style. It is a great window into the Swahili world, especially the culture of the country's coast. But, I mean, there are others, there is a literary movement. Characters run through, as well as in other African countries.
Since Chinua Achebe in Nigeria, even writing outside the country, outside the continent, but they are increasingly important voices in the literature of the African continent, and some of them are here from Tanzania, including Nobel Prize winners for Literature. So, there is important potential in this field as well, they actually put a lot of effort into trying to have a greater range of reading and translation.
So, an effort is made to seek to translate Brazilian literature here, but also seek to expand knowledge of their literature in our country, because literature is a great window for a deeper knowledge of another's culture.
When you understand the immediate surroundings and the post-independence historical process of the countries in this region, it is necessary to highlight the very positive trajectory that Tanzania has had, and the importance of firm leadership. Julius Nyerere, the first president, guided the country's destinies after the British left Tanzania.
He had a very clear vision of the nation he wanted to build and consolidate, and he achieved it. And do in Tanzania what surrounding countries have not been able to do, for example, Tanzania has more than 160 different tribes and this is very common here in the countries in the region, being characterized by tribal differences within their territories.
However, in other countries, such as Malawi, where I also served as Ambassador, these tribal differences are still striking today and there is a certain political struggle for the leadership of the country between different tribes.
Here in Tanzania, precisely because of the encouragement of Swahili as the national language, there was a great effort on the part of Julius Nyerere, the first president, to minimize the tribal importance of belonging to a certain tribal group and highlight nationality, highlight the feeling of belonging to the Tanzanian nation.
And this contributed tremendously to the cohesion of the country. You visit any part of the country today and everyone speaks Swahili and everyone feels equally Tanzanian. It is a country that, as a result, is also characterized by a regime of peace and tranquility, a country that has no ethnic conflicts, no internal wars, no tribal wars.
I mean, when you consider the immediate surroundings, I mean, on the other side of Lake Tanganyika, on the western border of Tanzania, you have the Democratic Republic of Congo which has been involved in a conflict for decades, it's a conflict between different ethnicities that goes increasingly gaining a regional character. It is a source of great instability.
To the south of Tanzania, in the north of Mozambique, unfortunately, in recent years, the province of Cabo Delgado has also been embroiled in a conflict involving Islamic terrorists and instability and internal displacements and a very large crisis in this entire area.
Tanzania remains peaceful and this is a great asset for the country to ensure economic development and attract greater investment and trade because, naturally, in a situation where the country is in conflict, there would be no interest from foreign investors. I mean, economic stability, social stability is one of Tanzania's great assets today to attract more investment.
(GO): Mr. Ambassador. So, to end our interview, I would like to ask a question that we ask all Brazilians interviewed for our magazine. Based on your experience, what do you think has not yet been done, but could be done, in general, to increase bilateral trade between Brazil and Africa?
(GN): Well, the tools are given, we just need to keep working. What needs to be done? Reduce mutual ignorance.
There is still a lot of ignorance regarding the potential, because the potential is there, but it is not recognized by many of the actors. In the case of Tanzania, in particular, for example, even due to the country's own historical process, they are naturally much more focused on trade with the Middle East, with India, with China.
In other words, they face the Indian Ocean. So, their natural response, when talking about deeper engagement with other countries, Tanzania's natural response is to deepen engagement with the countries that they see in front of them, these are the countries that they reach through the great trade routes of the Indian Ocean. But naturally this should not come at the expense of greater engagement with Brazil.
And we can see this clearly, just in these recent trends in bilateral trade. When a shortage of sugar was observed here in the country specifically due to the performance of the national harvest, Tanzania then opened up to the foreign market to source sugar and started purchasing, from where else? From Brazil.
The potential is there, we just need to reduce ignorance, bring people closer together and the tools for this exist here at the Embassy.
One of the things we managed to achieve here at the Embassy recently was the opening of the trade promotion sector, with the hiring of a Tanzanian employee specifically dedicated to encouraging contact between potential importers and Tanzanian exporters with their counterparts in Brazil.
And she is a very well qualified person, a Tanzanian lady who lived in Brazil for a few years and who will help us in this dialogue and facilitate the preparation of reports and indicate, in short, direct specific requests in the different segments.
In other words, what needs to be done? What is not being done yet? We need to do more of the same, what is already being done, but needs to be intensified. It needs to be intensified because the opportunities are there.
(FS): That is our objective: to make Africa known to the world and, in a certain way, Africa's potential. I firmly believe that Africa will be the next great power and is well positioned, both in terms of climate issues, energy issues, and at all levels.
Therefore, we just have to take advantage of this magnificent continent that is the African continent and we will be number one in the coming years.
(GN): There is certainly potential here in all areas, the continent has an incredible demographic dividend, a young population. Naturally, they have the challenge here of providing adequate education to this population and offering employment. So I would say that today one of Africa's greatest challenges is the development of its human capital.
Of course, of course here in Tanzania too, which is a country with a very young population, which today exceeds 61, 62 million people, that is, a population larger than that of South Africa.
However, with a GDP that is 1 fifth of South Africa's GDP and with such a high fertility rate, Tanzania has a fertility rate of 3%, which, when projected, suggests that Tanzania's population will double in the next 23, 25 years for around 120 million people.
In other words, they have a great challenge of providing education and employment to this population, but it is also a great demographic asset, they have the chance to reach a new level of development based on the economic elements that are available today and Brazil, naturally , is here to try to contribute to this development process and participate in this story.
(GO): Mr. Ambassador, I would like to once again thank you for your presence.
(FS): Mr. Ambassador, it was a pleasure. I hope we can talk again later when there is an interesting project to talk about. We stay open to new possibilities. For now, I really appreciate the time you gave us and thank you very much for the interview.
(GN): Thank you very much, Francisco. Thank you very much, Vanessa, for the opportunity, it was a great pleasure for me to participate and exchange views with you about this great potential of the bilateral relationship between Brazil and Tanzania, and of course the African continent as a whole, and a success for the magazine and For the projects you are involved in, I wish you much success.
Picture: © 2024 Francisco Lopes-Santos
