Brazil-Nigeria: Ties of an Inspiring Dialogue.
Exclusive Interview with Mais Afrika, by Ronaldo Vieira, Minister Counselor at the Brazilian Embassy in Abuja, Nigeria.
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In an enlightening conversation, Ronaldo Vieira, Minister Counselor at the Brazilian Embassy in Abuja, shared valuable aspects about the complex diplomatic web between Brazil and Nigeria.
In this sixteenth Great Interview, we gained a unique vision of diplomatic work at the intersection of cultures and nations, revealing in its intricacies the challenges faced and the substantial opportunities for the future of Brazil-Nigeria relations.
With almost two decades of diplomatic career, Ronaldo stands out as a linguist, poet and fervent defender of the diplomatic role in favor of Brazil. In this interview, he takes us through his remarkable journey, highlighting experiences in African countries such as Tanzania, Kenya and Mozambique.
Ronaldo's vision of Africa transcends the conventional, considering the continent as having a rich historical heritage and a promising future. In his words, it is time to integrate ancient knowledge with contemporary dynamics, establishing crucial collaborations for sustainable development.
We talked about technology transfer and technical cooperation between Brazil and Nigeria and also discussed the current panorama of Brazilian foreign policy in relation to Africa, highlighting the conversation, regional and global cooperation in the midst of challenges such as climate change , food security and peace.
We learned in this interview that Ronaldo clearly challenges cultural stereotypes, emphasizing the need for mutual understanding between the two countries, promoting innovative projects in the creative industry, especially in cinema and music, which are presented as instruments to strengthen cultural and commercial ties.
Get ready for an enriching exploration led by an experienced Minister Advisor who seeks to transcend borders and promote a more solid and sustainable partnership between Brazil and Nigeria.
Join us in this fascinating conversation and find out what you don't expect...
The interview
Francisco Lopes-Santos (FLS): Welcome. First of all, I would like to thank you for your willingness to give us this interview. But before we start, could you introduce yourself to our readers a little, telling us who you are and telling us a little about your professional journey until you reached your current position?
Ronaldo Vieira (RV): Of course, first of all I would like to thank Mais África magazine for the invitation. It's a pleasure to be here with you. I think the work they do is important, because it is a diplomatic tool for spreading knowledge and circulating information.
This is currently called public diplomacy. Society, which pays our salaries, has the right to know what the diplomatic service does. So, for me, it is always a pleasure to interface with civil society.
Well, my name is Ronaldo Vieira, I am Minister Counselor at the Brazilian Embassy in Abuja, Nigeria. I am currently in charge of affairs because the ambassador left some time ago and I took over the Embassy.
We have to remember that Brazil and Nigeria are developing countries, so we have to join forces so that our society can have development that is sustainable and inclusive, so that we can achieve the goals of sustainable development.
Well, you recently asked about my trajectory. I am a career Diplomat, I joined Itamarati in 2005 and over these almost 20 years, I have worked mostly in African countries. I worked in Tanzania, Kenya, Mozambique and now I'm working here in Nigeria. I'm leaving and must now go to Romania, in Bucharest.
Previously, I also served in Paris, I was a representative of the Brazilian government and Latin American countries in 2014. Along with the management committee, I organized and prepared the sustainable development agenda. My part at that time was to work on goal number four, related to education. Apart from that, in my academic career, I am a linguist and work with discourse analysis.
I'm also a poet in my spare time, a poet and theater writer, because we need a little art in our lives to maintain as little sanity as possible in this international life that seems easy, but isn't. It may be glamorous, but it is extremely difficult and full of activities that are extremely necessary. And I consider myself a diplomat who is aware that I work for Brazil.
FLS: Mr Minister. Before we start talking about your placement in Nigeria and given your previous experience in other African countries, how do you see the African continent and the different realities that coexist on it?
VR: I see the African continent as the continent of the future, because it is one of the oldest continents in terms of civilization on the planet. Now is the time to move forward. We also need to go back and take advantage of the ancient knowledge that exists on this continent.
I see that the African continent has inserted itself and has sought to insert itself into the international scene in a very peculiar way, because it is not a small continent. Countries are mega diverse, they are diverse within them, and they are diverse.
Each country is at the moment of its development, but I see that together with Brazil, South America, and Latin America, all peoples – I will say peoples, not countries at this moment – are trying to adjust to find a place in the sun.
We come from a recent history of a modern history of the last 500 years of prioritizing a certain more Eurocentric culture, and in recent years, we are making efforts. We are making efforts to enter the international scene, and I think we are finding our identity in this world.
FLS: Ronaldo, as a career Diplomat with extensive experience in Africa, what do you think of your government's current position in relation to the continent? Or in other words, do you believe that this position needs to stop being just political and become something more practical and effective?
VR: Of course, of course. Nowadays, there is no way to joke about climate change, there is no way to joke about food security, there is no way to joke about peace and war anymore. So today I consider that the government that is there, Brazil's current foreign policy towards Africa, has a positive and altruistic agenda of building the regional, planetary and global strength of developing countries.
I think it's time to assert our power and our power in several Pillars at the same time. It is not only the economic Pillar that, unfortunately, is the main focus of most people's lives, but also the political focus, the development focus, and the climate focus.
So, I feel that international organizations and many developed countries have understood that the configurations of the world today, of international relations, necessarily pass through countries like Brazil and Nigeria and others. I'm talking about these two because I'm currently here in Nigeria.
And to have better development, we need to include everyone in the development agenda, the planetary agenda, the global agenda and the climate change agenda.
FLS: Ronaldo, as current Minister Counselor of the Brazilian Embassy in Abuja, Nigeria, what are your impressions of the country and what projects do you consider crucial to strengthening bilateral relations between the two countries, and in which sectors specifically?
VR: Quickly, I imagine the following: the bilateral agenda and Brazil's agenda with Africa are very extensive.
I cannot presume to say that the activity that the Brazilian Embassy is carrying out, together with the Brazilian consulate here in Nigeria, which also operates in Lagos, that these two representatives of the Brazilian government are carrying out here in this country, encompasses the entire extent the needs that the bilateral agenda requires.
The agenda is extremely extensive, there are two emerging countries, two large-economy producing countries that represent a lot in their regions. We need to do a lot of things together, but we can't wait for the day when we can accomplish everything to begin the task.
You begin the task, and the story takes care of directing the relationships. So, I am part of a process that started before me and that will certainly continue after I leave the embassy.
Currently, what we are doing, what we currently consider crucial for our development, is developing technical cooperation projects because we have many identities in terms of culture. We have many identities in terms of climate, in terms of soil, in terms of resources. So, we can very well help each other in development.
Basically, here the Embassy in the last 3 years has focused a lot on the commercial promotion not only of Brazil in Nigeria, as you well know, Vanessa, but also supporting the commercial promotion of Nigeria in Brazil.
Because if we are developing countries, we want sustainable development, we must create a foreign policy for the sustainable development of emerging countries. Not doing traditional bilateral cooperation like other developed countries do with developing countries.
Another thing we do is prioritize the development of technical cooperation. Brazil over the last few years has developed many skills and knowledge in the technical and scientific areas, both for health, the environment, agriculture, and why not also in the area of commerce and industrialization.
Nigeria has a huge population of 225 million people, of which 70% are under 35 years of age. People speak English, in addition to their original languages, and therefore have access to the internet world. It's very vast and therefore they have wonderful knowledge of IT and software development, and we can also approach them and learn a lot from them in that.
We are also now focusing on the development of the cultural area, because no one buys a product by itself. If you buy a toothpaste, that toothpaste carries a cultural element. So, there is no point trying to do commercial promotion, trying to sell agricultural machinery here if the Nigerian does not trust our agricultural machinery, if he does not understand what this system is for.
Our projects are complementary to each other, but our priorities, to tell you in a few words, focus on the area of commercial promotion, technology transfer and technical cooperation, and deepening cultural knowledge.
FLS: As I said in the previous answer, you talked a lot about the economic aspect, but you also talked about something very important, which is the cultural aspect. And we know that Nigeria, especially the Nigerian Nollywood cinema market, is at the same level as Indian Bollywood and American Hollywood and there is also a great cultural rapprochement between Brazil and Nigeria.
Therefore, I ask this question here: as you mentioned the important cultural aspect, what exchanges exist between Brazil and Nigeria to promote this cultural aspect between the two countries?
VR: Well, thank you very much for the question. We have identified in the last 3 years that we have a GAP, a very large gap in cultural knowledge. Nigeria knows very little about Brazil, Brazil knows very little about Nigeria, and we decided to operate in the creative industry in order to at least improve each other's knowledge.
Our idea today, for example, we just had a commercial forum for the creative industry that focused on the film industry, the Carnival industry and the music industry, which Nigeria is one of the biggest hubs for creating music in the world. And we also have a lot to benefit from this sector.
In the particular issue of cinema, the difference is stark. Nollywood produces 2200 films per year, and Brazil produces 179 films per year. Nollywood produces films all linked to the private sector, Brazil only produces films when it has government support. Obviously, there are exceptions, there is a lot of independent cinema too, but this does not reach 10% of the total production.
Another thing that Nollywood has is the ability to make films with a low budget, and Brazil needs to learn this. So, we have been encouraging Brazilian filmmakers to get to know Nigerian filmmakers.
Last year, we created the popcorn cinema session here, in which we brought filmmakers from Abuja and surrounding areas to watch some Brazilian films and do interviews with the directors of these respective films.
And then we have already managed to have some kind of dialogue, but the language barrier is very big, because Brazil doesn't speak English. The truth is this. Very few of us speak English. And then, this led to another area, which is the linguistic area of educational cooperation to promote the teaching of the Portuguese language.
And then, we have been working with the PALOPs here, because we think that the PALOPs, the Portuguese-speaking African countries, also have the capacity to see cooperation in the area of linguistic exchange. But then I have tried to include language exchange in all programs, including the audiovisual program.
Just to give you an example, the African film festival takes place at the beginning of November, it is the biggest film festival in Africa, and we are managing to bring some Brazilian filmmakers and some institutions that promote audiovisual to business rounds.
I think we will achieve my ambition, which is, I think it will be more like hope, which I will ask my colleagues to continue, is that as Brazil produces, it is very famous in the production of soap operas, and the Nigeria likes Brazilian soap operas.
Nollywood has this enormous potential in film production, to start making bilateral international productions, Brazil-Nigeria, correct? And try to place Nigerian narratives within Brazilian soap operas, because this will help a lot to spread knowledge in a very popular way.
And here I'm going to tell you something, sorry I'm taking too long, is that I'm trying to be as direct as possible because there are a lot of things boiling here in my head. But I need to tell you this detail: in the case of Brazil, we have an extremely stereotypical view of Nigeria.
Because Brazil has several religions of African origin and let's say, the Mecca, the Rome of churches and African terreiros of African-Brazilian origin is in Oió, which is a city here in Nigeria, like the great Mecca because Xangô, the great father of all these religions in Brazil and Yoruba is a language that is used within religious worship in Brazil.
Brazilians in general believe that Nigeria is totally orixá, totally Candomblé and totally Yoruba. And the truth is that traditional religions in Nigeria are extremely frowned upon, they are very few, less than 2% of the population here follows traditional religions and there are more than 200 traditional religions in the 250 ethnicities in this country.
So, people started to get scared and then, I started to realize that it was essential to bring the discussion about the creative industry to the search, because the creative industry already exists there in Lagos, but Lagos is the Yoruba region. So, now, our big challenge is to bring this knowledge of the linguistic diversity and cultural diversity of Nigeria to the Brazilian critical mass.
Therefore, it was a huge effort to bring all this commercial, artistic and cultural discussion to the country's capital, which is Abuja, where you find a crossroads of the cultural melting pot that is this country. Just to conclude, Brazil knows very little about Nigerian music.
I don't know if you know, but all the great North American artists who are successful worldwide learn musical creativity from Nigerians. Beyoncé, for example, in her artistic production, she uses a lot of elements from a singer here called Burna Boy, he is quite famous here, he has wonderful songs and we still know very little about them.
So, the cultural area is a universe yet to be explored. We started, as I said, with just a little notebook, and I have hope and will leave it on record here so that colleagues can continue this policy too, because it is what opens the true paths for trade promotion in both countries.
So, another thing that shocked me, some traders here who send religious products to Brazil often have problems at customs, because Brazilian Customs has problems with religious prejudice.
Sometimes, they don't let these artists in, who are, after all, commercial promotion, you know? So, culture is fundamental, and music and cultural diversity are fundamental to deconstruct this stereotype, if I may say so, childish nonsense, that we Brazilians have of Nigeria.
FLS: Ronaldo, you will soon leave your position in Nigeria. I would like to know what advice you have for Brazilians interested in doing business with Africa and, in particular, with Nigeria.
VR: Who am I to give advice? I think I'm a human being full of limitations. I have tried to fight for a better world, but my little experience of 3 years here in commercial promotion of Brazil in Nigeria made me believe that there is no point in Brazilians arriving here arrogant, thinking they are going to teach their African brother something.
There is no point in Brazilians thinking that they have the best technical-scientific knowledge in the world and that Nigeria has no technical-scientific knowledge. There is no point in Brazilians arriving here and thinking that products and services are something from the mechanical world because they are not, they are something integrated into the cultural system.
And you go to the supermarket, you don't buy just any product, you always buy the product with which you have some relationship. So, it is important that Brazilians study Nigeria more, be more open to cultural differences, review their prejudices that we call structural, historically placed in their heads and review their position in relation to black people, the black community in Brazil.
Many times, Brazilians arrive here with a very Eurocentric and white mentality, a little old-fashioned for the new realities. And we also have other problems that we need to deconstruct. So, I'm going to quote you here now, I don't really like to go into these subjects, but sometimes it's necessary to touch on some serious wounds.
There is a big problem about human trafficking, human trafficking, and drug trafficking. Okay, it's a serious problem, but it's not just a Nigeria problem, it's a Brazilian problem, it's a Paraguayan problem, it's a European problem.
So, instead of putting the Nigerian just in this little box and thinking that all Nigerians are like that, which is our big problem, there are 225 million people in Nigeria, more than 250 ethnicities, and we insist on putting everyone in the same box?
No, we need to think outside the box. Governments need to work together in organizing bilateral agreements, in organizing high-level meetings between presidents, in order to advance in the consular area, sorry, in the area of human trafficking, in the area of human trafficking, in the area of the health, in the area of immigration.
These are topics that are hot not only for Nigeria, but also for Brazil. We need to be a little more critical and look inside ourselves, understand? So we can deconstruct a little, strip ourselves of that colonialist clothing that we still have from a long time ago and start looking at something new. It’s often millennial, you know?
Nowadays, for example, in architecture it has been fashionable in Brazil to use clay construction, and we have clay buildings here in Nigeria that are 3000 years old. And why don't we go and explore their architecture?
Why don't we go and see it? They have traditional medicine here that they have been using for a long time, and medicine here is very expensive for Nigerians, and they are doing well, they survived Covid much better than us, it is not certain that it was because of the traditional medicine, the plants that they use, or from their food.
But let's look at this diet, let's look at these plants that I call traditional medicines. Let's learn too. Let's try to deconstruct in our heads that all black people are equal and that along with this blackness comes a whole cultural prejudice structured in our heads.
And I tell you this because it is structured in the minds of all of us Brazilians, including yours, mine and we are always fighting, we always get caught up in situations, but we have to have this critical awareness in order to advance in commercial promotion, understand?
What's the point, for example, one of these days, I was here talking about selling tractors here, and then one of the Nigerians who was at the meeting raised his voice and said:
“You don’t know that energy here is extremely expensive, gasoline, oil, they are extremely expensive.”
“You don't know that these people can't afford tractors and that you don't have machinery that can be used with animal or human traction, or that can use a solar panel.”
And then I saw that the Brazilian community, the Brazilian delegation, was kind of shocked. Why? Because you didn't do your homework. So, my message that I'm going to leave today, I regret having to say these things this way because there are several other ways, but I think that, as you put me on the spot, I'm going to say it here, eh, straight and straight, kids.
Businesspeople interested in promoting Brazil's trade in Nigeria, let's do our homework. Let's read, let's watch Nollywood films, let's better understand what the reality we are dealing with is, because sometimes we have very close realities, but sometimes the reality that is close is from the interior of the Northeast at the interior school here in Nigeria.
And here come the people from Paria Lima, for example, with this idea of Paria Lima. Obviously this won't work, and if I can insist, I see that Brazilian education is generalist, because I studied in Brazil, I went to public school almost my entire life, and any other day I can give you, including, an interview about my own biography, how I arrived in the diplomatic world.
I am one of the few diplomats who went to public school, and my colleagues went to private school, and I know, and I was a private school teacher before entering the diplomatic career, and what happens? We study, we learn to deal with the diversity between chemistry, history, geography, literature.
And then I don't know what happens after college, people kind of dumb down, and they become very focused on that little Cartesian box of theirs, I go to work with the xis tractor and then, it gets older and more closed in the little box.
And to develop commercial promotion today, as you are saying, we need to open our horizons, do our homework, be a little more humble.
FLS: Thanks. Sometimes, there is a lack of sincerity and, as they say, it is necessary to put dots where they are often left unsaid. And in the answer he gave, he spoke about an aspect that, in my opinion, was extremely important. He spoke about the issue of trafficking and the issue of drugs. This reminds me that Nigeria suffers from a very serious problem, which is the problem of Boko Haram and has had serious problems in defense.
When we normally talk about exchanges with Brazil, we forget a very important aspect that I think many people don't know. Brazil is one of the world's greatest military powers, rivaling the United States, Russia and Europe. They have their own weapons and develop cutting-edge technology. Unfortunately, as there are many wars, it is marketed well and is a salable product.
I learned that last year the Ministry of Defense and the Brazilian Embassy in Nigeria promoted a forum on strategic defense.
Therefore, my curiosity is whether this forum bore fruit, whether it yielded any income and, by the way, which specific areas of collaboration could exist between Nigeria and Brazil to obviously strengthen Nigerian security and promote commercial and technological exchanges between the two countries. .
VR: Thank you very much for the question. I know the interview is coming to an end, so I'll try to be quick. Basically, we have been developing defense and security forums over the last 4 years and they have borne fruit.
I have to make a reservation: I am a Peace Diplomat, I believe in transformation for a better world. At the same time, I am the diplomat for all of Brazil. So, I do extremely professional commercial promotion work here, also in the defense area.
As you say, Brazil has a very large potential in this area, the largest budget in this country here is in the defense area. What we do at the embassy is to operate on two lines simultaneously: we promote our security and defense industries and, at the same time, we have developed a foreign policy of international consultation for cooperation for peace.
Nowadays, for example, we have already sold several planes here, we have managed to sell several weapons and various defense equipment. Several others are still in process, because they are very expensive and the transfer of technology is extremely complex, also thinking about the maintenance park of all this material.
It's natural that things move a little slower, but it has yielded very good results, especially for Brazil. At the same time, we have been very attentive to the development of the countries that make up the South Atlantic zone, for our security, involving developing countries from the Atlantic coast of Brazil to the Atlantic coast.
We are offering cooperation in the area of defense, exchange of military personnel between Brazil and Nigeria to operate together in various contexts.
Our president has tried to coordinate well with the president of Nigeria in international forums. At the same time as it has had good results in terms of trade promotion, we offer another type of cooperation to prevent wars and mitigate harmful effects.
Our difference in commercial promotion in the defense area is that the Brazilian government does not accept companies selling products without technology transfer. That's the big difference; technology transfer goes hand in hand with the sale of products and services.
FLS: Ronaldo, to finish our interview, I would like to ask one last question that we ask all Brazilian interviewees. Based on your experience, what do you think has not yet been done, but should have been done in general, to increase bilateral trade between Brazil and Africa?
VR: I think things are being done, but what is not something more that needs to be done is that we need to put more strength, more energy. The Ministry of Culture, Embratur, need to be more present in the promotion work. It already exists, but it is timid. That's the problem. What you need to do is this.
And I think that, suddenly, people like you could bring this Brazilian business community together, create forums so that we can reflect together on how things are developing in Nigeria. There is a layer of the population that is extremely educated, very knowledgeable, and very hardworking.
So I think all we need to do is not be shy. Commercial promotion in cinema cannot be hum, it has to be more robust. Technical cooperation must be more robust. Our presence needs to be better and needs to be improved, you understand me.
And I have to say that there is a Brazilian institution that has done a very good job, which is to receive Nigerian missions in the interior of Brazil. It looks like it's a walk, no, but it's not. It's a super serious and super necessary thing. And this institution welcomes people a lot. This is also important for Nigerians to know.
So, our cultural promotion has to be more intense. We need professionals here working more. Nowadays, commercial, cultural, educational, financial and political matters fall to two diplomats. Is very little. We need a Guimarães Rosa Institute Cultural Center to be more present here.
We have the “Agudás”, the returnees of Brazilians who returned to Nigeria, their houses are being restored. There is a whole history that needs to be reconstructed. And today, we have cooperation with four, five Brazilian universities. Personally, I don't think so.
We need to step up. So, if I can contribute with the word, the word is this: intensify what is already being done. Because otherwise, we will never leave the surface. On the surface, we don't promote change. This is my perception, limited within this universe that I saw. Of course much of my thinking is wrong.
FLS: Dear Ronaldo Vieira, I can only thank you for making your time available for this interview. I sincerely hope that we will talk again on another occasion and also with more availability. Thank you very much for being here with us.
VR: Thank you, it was a pleasure to be here.
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Picture: © DR
