Exclusive Interview with Mais Afrika by Mr. Ricardo Bernhard, chief advisor of the trade promotion sector at the Embassy of Brazil, in Pretoria, South Africa.
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South Africa is the country where you should bet.
In this ninth Great Interview, we got to know Ricardo Bernhard, chief advisor for the trade promotion sector at the Embassy of Brazil, in Pretoria, South Africa, without a doubt, a professional of excellence who knows his work in depth and who knew how to pass your message clearly.
The interview was fantastic and many topics were covered based on his experience.
We talked a little about his career, human rights not only internationally but also of Brazilian indigenous people, where he clarified some truths poorly told by most of the media.
We also talk about the African economy, about its trajectory until reaching Africa, about the importance of Brazil to the continent, about trade and equality, more than differences, between Brazil and South Africa.
We also discussed the health problems and difficulties that South Africa is going through and, of course, the economic potential that South Africa represents.
We also talked about the future BRICS conference that will take place in South Africa and its commercial and international importance.
In short, it was a very interesting interview that I advise you not to miss. See it on our Channel +Afrika, or read its full transcript here.
Read, watch, follow and share the interview! It was a great pleasure to make it, I hope it gives you a great pleasure to accompany it.
The interview
More Afrika (MA): Dear Ricardo, to start our interview and for our followers to get to know you better, I ask you to introduce yourself and make yourself known to our followers.
Richard Bernhard (RB): Hello, good afternoon, first of all I would like to thank you for the invitation, it is a pleasure to participate in this conversation with you.
My name is Ricardo Bernhard, I started a diplomatic career in 2009, I worked in Brasília, at the Brazilian Embassy in Ottawa, Canada, and in Dublin, Ireland as well. Three months ago I arrived here at the Brazilian Embassy in Pretoria, South Africa, where I am the head of trade promotion, which is a sector that also covers other topics.
In addition to strictly speaking commercial promotion, where it also takes care of agriculture issues, investment attraction and tourism promotion and also attention to Brazilian companies that are already installed here and it is a pleasure to talk with you a little about Brazil relations and South Africa in terms of trade, investment and other issues they may want to address.
(BAD): Good morning everyone, Good morning Francisco, Good morning Ricardo. Thank you for accepting our invitation.
Ricardo at the moment you are at the Brazilian Embassy in Pretoria, as head of the commercial department in South Africa, but before that you went through Canada and Ireland, which are three countries that apparently have nothing in common, given your experience, Would you like to give us an overview of different commercial differences between them?
(RB): Look, this question is quite interesting because it leads me to think precisely about possible similarities between these three countries. I think that in addition to the differences in geographic size, in the size of the economy, in the history of social and political construction, there are a lot of similarities, starting with this colonization or domination.
Depending on the British case that gives rise to the use of English as a standard language in the three countries and British rule, British colonization, depending on the case of the countries, also led to this curious coexistence of different languages in the three countries.
Canada, thought of the reality in English and French, Ireland uses English, but also seeks to revitalize its own language that they call Irish or Gaelic and South Africa which is a multicultural territory with different peoples, there are 11 official languages determined in the Constitution, so there are already some similarities and, in terms of trade, there are also similarities between the three countries.
The three countries are major agricultural producers and find in the export of agricultural items of animal origin one of their economic strengths, but they also have, also keeping the due proportions and national realities, a well-established, well-established industry.
Ireland has a more advanced manufacturing, since in recent times it has implemented a policy of attracting investments, in the high technology area, so pharmaceutical, computing, information technology products are imported by them.
Canada has a solid automotive and oil industry for a long time, and the export of oil, or grains, for example, is a strength of Canada and South Africa too, as you know on the African continent is the most diversified, more modern, has a very robust infrastructure, regulatory system.
But agriculture is also an important part of its economic activity, so not so much in proportion to GDP, 2% more or less, but it employs a lot of manpower, 5% in labor and also trade relations, exports of products for Africa, for everyone, is also very important, it also got me thinking.
And, perhaps it is a reality in all our bilateral relations, but there are small disagreements, I would say, in the commercial area, including with these three countries. I went through Canada first, where there was this, let's say, this economic dispute, between our aeronautical industries, Bombardier in Canada, Embraer in Brazil, so it was a dispute in the most industrial terrain.
In Ireland, the main reason for difficulty was the meat industry. Ireland is a major meat producer and the Mercosur-European Union relationship, Ireland had a meat production sector that raised obstacles to the agreement, and here in South Africa.
We also have, although the relationship is positive with these three countries, we also have the small dispute in the field of chicken meat. South Africa is a major producer of chicken meat and Brazil is currently the main supplier of chicken meat. 66% of South Africa's chicken imports come from Brazil.
So I was thinking, this question made me think, which I find curious, I think it is inevitable with all bilateral relationships in some way, to put on all the economic and commercial ties that unite us there is also always a little rift, a little friction between countries.
It is up to the Embassy to seek to overcome and find ways to reach understandings, since trade helps both parties, both buying and selling, exporting and importing.
There are many benefits for both parties in both operations, it is not just exporting, which is positive, importing, which is negative, this commercial relationship brings benefits to both parties, but I found this question quite interesting, because it makes these differences in my mind and similarities between the three countries.
(BAD): In fact, I agree that a good trade policy is a win-win policy, or both parties gain equally, or if there is an imbalance, it is not beneficial.
Therefore, it is good to see that especially Brazil, which has always sought this type of commercial exchange, in which it not only arrives in a country to explore that country, but also arrives in that country to help it develop and promote itself and I like much of Brazilian foreign policy in this aspect, because it is completely different from other countries.
Unfortunately, other countries do not behave this way.
Well, but that also leads me in a way to the next question, because between 2021 and 2022, he worked at the Brazilian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, linked to human rights and I was curious about this part of his curriculum, because I find it very interesting that the human rights are respected worldwide.
So, and unfortunately that doesn't happen, so if possible, I would like you to talk a little about your experience in this department of Human Rights.
(RB): Certainly Francisco, our diplomatic career has this characteristic that allows us to have contact with different themes, different subjects, I had this satisfaction of having worked in the area of human rights in the last 18 months, there in Brasília. It is an extremely interesting area, enriching in the personal perspective.
There are different aspects of our work, there in Brasília, in the area of Human Rights. One of them, which seemed very interesting to me, is the multilateral area and, as political phenomena are increasingly taken with this board of discussions on Human Rights, both there in the human rights council, in Geneva, and in the general assembly in New York. York.
In other multilateral forums, polarization, the quest to bring human rights to all territories, to all countries, naturally puts countries in conflict and these conflicts reverberate in the background.
It was a very interesting experience for me, accompanying and participating in some way, influencing and helping to form Brazil's positions, in these important votes that take place in multilateral forums and, there is also another dimension of human rights that we also deal with there in Brasília and this in close cooperation with other agencies of the federal government.
Mainly the Attorney General of the Union in the Ministry of Women and the Family of Human Rights, it is the inter-American system, in which Brazil is a party and there are cases, both in the Inter-American Human Rights Commission on Human Rights, and in the Inter-American Court and Human Rights there in San Jose.
So the Brazilian citizen takes actions to defend their interests. The protection of human rights and the State, have to respond and meet the recommendations that these bodies make, also then, the construction of this defense of the Brazilian State, but also the implementation of these decisions, is a very interesting part of our work and it.
I still think it gives a Third Dimension and it's more at the internal level, but it's also enriching for me that is our participation in the human rights councils that exist within Brazil, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, has an emphasis on several councils, the most One of them is the National Human Rights Council CNDH.
But we also participated in the CNPI, the ethics of promoting racial equality, of women's rights, and from this perspective, this possibility of dialoguing with civil society within these bodies, in defense of this common objective, both of the government and civil society was very interesting. that promoted human rights for all.
It was a very enriching experience and I take many lessons for the rest of my career.
(BAD): Since you talked about Human Rights internally and also about racial problems, I would like to ask you a question about a subject, perhaps a little touchy, but that was left unsaid and is also considered by many to be a bit controversial.
I am talking about the problem of Brazilian indigenous people. From what can be seen in the media, especially outside Brazil, the human rights of indigenous peoples have been literally trampled on.
What do you think of this situation? Is it just an excess of the media, is it a reality that is not as bad as it is portrayed abroad or, is this idea of trampling on indigenous rights true, or even being true, is it not as serious as it is said?
Can you enlighten us about the real reality and the government's stance in relation to this problem?
(RB): There is indeed this challenge that the Brazilian government does not deny, it recognizes, of protecting indigenous rights, guarding indigenous lands and promoting their rights. It's A Challenge that we recognize, but what I think is important to emphasize is that the government continues to be increasingly committed to achieving policies, to promoting the rights of indigenous peoples.
It is important to note that Brazil, which is a large part of Brazilian territory, has land demarcated for the exclusive use of indigenous people and operations are frequently carried out by the federal police, the Ministry of Justice, the competent bodies, to curb illicit activities. in indigenous lands and guarantee the protection of rights, now we recognize that it is a very extensive territory.
It is also often inhospitable and our ability to directly reach people and guarantee their rights, specifically on land, is often challenged by illegal actions.
But we do not deny it, but we are committed to guaranteeing to promote, both in the legal sphere, in the regulatory sphere, as well as in the concrete sphere of the actions that the government takes to protect the rights of indigenous people. That's the constitutional commitment to our Constitution and we cherish, we value, that right, what I could say.
(BAD): I do believe that, but the reason I asked this question is exactly that. Because in fact, what is happening abroad is just the negative and not much is said about indigenous rights and I know that there have been very strong movements in Brazil, in relation to this, and a lot has been done, but unfortunately not this is the image that passes out.
That's why, as I'm a little connected to the area, I wanted to ask this question to see if, well, I could clarify this a little too and, if there was a vision that was a little different from the usual.
(BAD): Well, Ricardo, let's go straight to the focus of the interview and let's talk a little about Africa. South Africa At the moment, it is one of the largest economies on the African continent and is clearly a gateway, not only to the Southern region, where we have sister countries such as Angola and Mozambique, as well as to the rest of the continent.
But South Africa has been betting a lot on industrial and Brazil is more focused on agriculture. Isn't it time for us to start thinking about investing in other commercial areas?
(RB): Look, Vanessa, what I would say, what I think, is that it is not necessary to make a choice between emphasizing the agricultural agenda, which we have a lot of comparative advantage, or the industrial agenda.
The service agenda, I think it is possible, to emphasize in parallel all the different aspects of our exports agenda, I think that even the commercial relationship that we have with South Africa translates this possibility of emphasizing different sectors.
I mentioned that chicken is very important, it is the main product in our export basket to South Africa, but there are also other industrialized products that make up our list, for example: vehicles, vehicle parts and equipment.
Mainly agricultural machinery, so yes, it is possible to reconcile different emphases and, I think that the government works in this direction and this is reflected here, in our direct work at the embassy, directly this quest to emphasize different sectors, I think it is something that can be , can and should be done simultaneously.
(BAD): Clearly the biggest competitor of any country in the African market is China, in South Africa this is no exception and it has been gradually increasing exports to the country. On the other hand, Brazilian exports have been decreasing. What do you think can or should be done to reverse this situation?
(RB): Look, Francisco, first I would like to say that in fact in recent years, the volume in general, not only of Brazilian exports, but the volume of the trade agenda, has regressed a little in relation to what had already been achieved, let's say eight 10 years ago.
I think this is more a reflection of the cyclical movements of the economy, both in Brazil and in South Africa, business circle, moments of greater growth, this pushes the trade agenda. There are moments of economic refraction, this affects the bilateral relationship a little.
The trade agenda and the pandemic in particular, significantly reduced our exchanges in 2020, but we can already observe a movement in the opposite direction, of growth, again, of Brazilian exports, mainly, since our bilateral agenda with Africa do Sul, has a surplus with Brazil.
However, in the first six months of 2022 alone, we have already reached, in terms of trade volume, all the volume we had in 2021. I think this is a sign of the recovery in our trade.
Our goal is to take it back to the levels we reached in the past, not so far away, 2010 2012 and take it back to that level and grow even more.
Now how could we do this from the point of view, let's say from the embassy, first I would tell you more tools, how we are committed to doing this, of the more traditional tools of commercial promotion.
I would say it is to quickly meet the demands of exporters and interested people, companies interested in selling and exporting to South Africa, quickly meeting these demands, organizing fairs for companies to come to participate in fairs here in South Africa, publication of studies, as we have done, publication of studies on beef.
We published a short time ago, another one on agricultural machinery, we have already published, on the Pharmaceutical Industry Sector, these studies, I think they help the Brazilian exporting potential, to have a more accurate view, both of the potential possibilities of the market, but also of the aspects and regulatory requirements of entry here into the South African market.
This informative work also passes on to the Brazilian exporter, the scenario, the potential and the most promising areas. I think this is our day-to-day work here that can increasingly support this resurgence of Brazilian exports.
(BAD): Ricardo, the MERCOSUR-SACU preferential trade agreement, was signed between 2008 and 2009 and only came into force in 2016. This agreement, as the name implies, is based on fixed preferences in specific areas.
However, South Africa from the beginning wanted a free trade agreement. Do you think that this agreement actually brought benefits to both parties, or a free trade agreement between the two countries would have been more beneficial?
(RB): Look Vanessa, I think the agreement brings more than a thousand tariff lines, on both sides, preferential. I think it's a very interesting platform for the exporter, apart from these parties taking the opportunity to better understand their respective markets, it's a recent agreement, as you said, it's been in force for less than 10 years and there's this challenge, I think.
The Embassy is also working in this direction, it is committed to solving this issue of increasing knowledge, increasing knowledge about the agreement. I think the agreement is still not well known. Also, both on the Brazilian side and on the member countries, here in the southern African customs union.
I think there are opportunities that are not being sufficiently explored and it is up to us to pass this message on to potential stakeholders and to exporters, to specific sectors, to be aware of the possibilities. Not long ago I participated in an event, with the government of Minas Gerais, specifically about the furniture sector.
We talked here about the possibilities of the market and in preparation for this event, it was interesting to note that precisely one of the sectors that took advantage of the agreement was the wooden furniture sector, based on the tariff preferences that are defined in the agreement.
Brazilian exports have grown a lot since the trade preference agreement came into force, I think it is this type of example that we should keep in mind, to try to make other sectors also vote, perceive the open advantages, for the agreement that can serve as a platform, in fact, for even more ambitious agreements in the future.
I think it is in MERCOSUR's interest, it is in SACU's interest, it is simply a matter of finding understandings and discussing details, both from a technical perspective, when understandings more in the political sphere arrive, to give ballast to an even more ambitious agreement that creates bases with an even stronger relationship for both parties.
But the message I wanted to take advantage of, even to pass on to potential buyers and companies in Brazil, is this. They are available here at SECOM in Pretoria.
It is to give more details about the agreement, to bring details about the tariff lines that are provided for in the agreement and so that they can make better use of the agreement, to enhance their business here on the continent, in the southern part of the African continent.
(BAD): Ricardo, probably will not be very comfortable talking about this subject, but as it affects the trade balance, I would like to know your opinion. With the Covid-19 pandemic, the world forgot that Africa, and in particular South Africa, has been living for years another very serious pandemic, the AIDS pandemic.
With the confinement, the problem of AIDS has seriously worsened in the country. It is obvious that this is a health problem, but it affects the economy. Do you think that South Africa is reacting properly to this pandemic situation and the country will be able to recover economically, or is the situation so dire that it will further exacerbate the economic crisis?
(RB): Look Francisco, I think South Africa, like Brazil, faces significant challenges. Our challenges are different, from Brazil, from South Africa, but both countries face significant challenges.
South Africa in fact faces this health problem, I think first of all it is this, it is a health problem, a social problem, not first of all an economic problem.
I don't think the world has forgotten about the AIDS pandemic, about AIDS, I think that in my experience, precisely there in the area of Human Rights, we had a, let's say, a sister division that dealt precisely with social issues of citizenship, including health.
I know that Brazil, for example, has a very robust performance in the area of cooperation, in the area of health and in the multilateral area, but also in the bilateral area. And now the challenge. really is significant.
There is no easy solution, but I believe that Brazil itself is committed to participating in discussions at the multilateral level and also at the bilateral level, to try to support South Africa in overcoming the challenges that I repeat, I think first, it is a human, social challenge, not primarily an economic one.
Of course, it has repercussions, but I think it is one more of the products of the problems of the social challenges that South Africa faces, as well as Brazil also has its own and I think that this requires, yes, the reinforcement of the cooperation of the national agreement, so that , mutually, we can find solutions to these problems.
(BAD): Ricardo one last question. What do you think has not yet been done that could be implemented to increase bilateral trade between Brazil and South Africa?
(RB): I don't know what was not done, but what I think we could do and continue to do, as we have already done, is our part here at the embassy.
As I said, to continue to quickly support the demands of the Brazilian private sector, to support Brazilian companies that are already established here in South Africa, to provide information on potential markets that are not explored here in South Africa, to help relationship with the government, to overcome any obstacles.
Of course, I think that we are going through a good moment in the relations between Brazil and South Africa, in the sense that, next year, we will have the BRICS Summit here, it will be in South Africa and that in itself already generates interest. of the private sector, of governments, of other countries that are going to prepare to come here.
We have a business segment of the BRICS, I'm sure this can help a lot to dynamize the relations of the private sector of the two countries.
In my short experience here in South Africa, in contacts, for example with the government party that has a kind of chamber of commerce, we also noticed on the part of the South African government an interest in strengthening the relationship in the commercial area, I think that it is common agreement that our relationship, in the political sphere, has already reached a significant density.
We have this cooperation in the BRICS, in the IBSA, or Brazil India Forum South Africa, Brazil and South Africa are also members of the G20, we also have a lot of forums in which we already cooperate and we have very substantial political ties , but we recognize both parties that it is necessary to make an effort, so that the relationship in the commercial and economic investment area.
It also reflects this, this density, of our political relationship and, what I can say, is that there is a total commitment, here at the embassy, to find initiatives and ways to promote the relationship in this area, both in a narrower scope way , more directed to the private sector, or specific demander.
But also in this broader way, thinking about the political forums that are available, in the broader relationship with the government, to facilitate contacts and strengthen relationships.
(BAD): Ricardo, I know we said it would be the last question, but since you mentioned BRICS, it's a subject that I think is interesting and that I didn't remember to mention before. The BRICS initially brought together Brazil, Russia, India and China. If I remember correctly, it emerged as a strategic alliance to convert these countries' economic power into greater geopolitical influence.
I have the idea that this alliance has not been used very well. Do you agree with this or is the reality completely different?
(RB): Well… for our part, we see the BRICS as one, a group of countries that have continental territorial dimensions that have a large population. They are strategic countries, in their respective regional guarantors, great economy, great investment capacity and that can serve as a platform for policies.
Either for the benefit of their own societies or, in a broader perspective, as a source of, for example, funding for activities in other countries. I think it's a platform that's constantly being built, but it's seen with a lot of interest and a sense of, I can say, priority, I think by all its members.
Like any mechanism created recently, it faces let's say, let's not say obstacles, but there is a way to go to solidify joint initiatives, determine common paths, with common action, but I think all its component countries.
South Africa, from my experience here in particular, also sees it as a preferred way of inserting countries into the international scenario. So I think the trend is that, more and more, we work to find common ground for initiatives and cooperation.
(BAD): Thank you very much for this clarification. On our part, that's all, but if you want to add something about a subject that I think is relevant and that hasn't been discussed, take advantage of the moment, we are here for you.
(RB): Thank you, for my part, I really wanted to thank Vanessa you Francisco for the invitation it is a pleasure to have had the opportunity to talk with you and to have shared a little of the Panorama of our relations of our work here at the embassy.
And I would like to take the opportunity to make this call again to the exporter for the Brazilian producer we are at your disposal here at the Embassy in Pretoria our email is [email protected] It is our pleasure to always meet the demands of passing lists of distributors and local buyers.
Clear regulatory doubts, pass on details of the applied tariffs and any questions they may have about entering the market here. I say again that I think it is a very interesting moment for relations and as much broader political perspective as with the BRICS summit here.
But also from a strictly commercial perspective, I wanted to point out that ApexBrasi, after some time away here in South Africa, has returned to have a physical representation here, it is a model of, let's say, outsourced representation, a consultancy based here in South Africa represents the interests of ApexBrasi .
I know that he is already organizing activities to promote Brazilian exports to South Africa, so it is yet another platform that will add to the efforts of the embassy here and build this relationship well underway, but which still has a lot of potential to be explored among the two countries. Thanks again for the opportunity.
(BAD): We are the ones who thank you for your participation, I think both from Mais Afrika and from all our followers, even the Brazilian part of businessmen who are always looking for us or looking for me to talk about Africa wanting more information
This series of interviews that we ended up doing with Mais Afrika is also helping people to know each particularity of each country to understand a little better how it works stops working what can be done the actions, I've been talking a lot with Apex so that we promote more commercial and promotional actions throughout the African continent.
This will only increase implement more and more actions and be beneficial for both sides. Thank you very much for your time for your availability Francisco thank you also to Nilza for this series of interviews with Brazil and thank you to everyone who follows us.
Ricardo Many thanks also to you for having participated and who knows, see you soon, maybe one day we can talk again.
(RB): It will certainly be a pleasure.
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Picture: © 2022 Francisco Lopes-Santos
