Exclusive Interview with Mais Afrika by Patrícia Maria Oliveira Lima, Ambassador of Brazil in Cameroon and Chad.
Please accept YouTube cookies to play this video. By accepting you will be accessing content from YouTube, a service provided by an external third party.
If you accept this notice, your choice will be saved and the page will refresh.
-------------------------------
Accept YouTube cookies to play this video. By accepting, you are accessing content from YouTube, a service provided by a third party.
If you accept, your choice will be saved and the page will refresh.
Empowerment female, a matter of education.
In this fascinating interview, conducted for our YouTube channel, +Áfrika , the current Brazilian ambassador to Cameroon and Chad, Patrícia Maria Oliveira Lima, spoke to us about her life, her aspirations, and her work. But above all, about something very dear to her: women's empowerment.
“The issue of female empowerment is a matter of education. And I think it's a process. It cannot be achieved overnight, it is a continuous process, valuing empowerment”.
During a pleasant conversation, we got to know an Ambassador, with whom we want to work. An ambassador whose work has been recognized wherever she has been, so she has already received three awards. The Order of Rio Branco, Knight Degree, from Brazil, the Medal “Friend of the Navy”, from Peru and the Order of the Two Niles, 1st degree, from Sudan.
We got to know a very interesting life path, which extends from human rights to the fight against crime, terrorism and corruption to a political presence on three continents. South America, Asia and Africa.
We learned that, behind the professional, there is the woman, the mother, the grandmother and a spirit of union with the African continent that guided her entire career and life goals without forgetting the feeling of “belonging to the land” that she defends. that we all have and that we should explore further.
In this conversation, we also learned that Brazil is a “shy” investor and prefers to opt for an “agro” approach when it has the potential for much more. Brazil has a large production of footwear and clothing and does not take advantage of the “needs” of Africa to export these products, among other items that it could also promote in a bilateral exchange beneficial to both parties.
But most important of all was the conversation about women's empowerment and everything this exceptional Ambassador has done about it. From self-defense classes to, within the cultural parameters of each people, promoting the education of women and girls, about their awareness as women and their important role in life and society.
In short, it was a very interesting conversation, so I recommend watching the video with the entire interview or, alternatively, reading the full transcript of the pleasant conversation we had on the " Great Interviews " program on our YouTube channel, +Áfrika, here.
The interview
More Afrika (MA): Hello, good afternoon, it's a pleasure to be here with you. To begin, and for those who will be listening and to get to know you a little better, could you tell us who you are and tell us a little about your journey up to the present day?
Patrícia Lima (PL): Good afternoon. It's also a pleasure, a great satisfaction, to be here. My name is Patrícia, I am Brazilian, born on March 1st, 1964 in the city of Rio de Janeiro. I have 2 daughters and a granddaughter. I lived a large part of my life in Brasília and, like almost everyone who lives in Brasília, almost everyone of my generation, we entered the public service.
I for a very practical reason. My dream was to do architecture, but architecture at the University of Brasília was considered to be in the exact area, so it needed math, so I had to quickly forget about architecture and look for something that didn't have math.
So, I went to study one of my passions, History, at the University of Brasília, I also studied law at the CEUB Center today, UniCEUB, it is already a University, at the time it was a college. And because my father wanted me to be a lawyer, so I satisfied him, but I became much happier studying history.
I did a bachelor's degree, a teaching degree and a master's degree and then I was in the master's degree, hence the specialization, in Brazilian foreign policy, I was approved in the Rio Branco contest. So I just took the credits, I couldn't defend my thesis.
And here I am, I started in the area of immigration, I also worked in the political sector, I worked in the area of international law, which is a fascinating area, and I stopped at the Department of Africa, where I rescued what I consider my vocation, which is to be in the African continent, my great passion.
So, here I am in my second African post, very happy, very happy, trying to contribute a little to strengthen relations between Brazil and the continent.
(MA): Madam Ambassador, throughout your diplomatic career, you have served in embassies in several Latin American countries and now also in Africa. Aside from the obvious cultural differences, what differences and similarities do you find between South America and Africa?
(PL): I think there are more similarities than differences. I think one of the aspects that most strikes me is the love for the land. I could see that in Peru when I served in Peru, the feeling of belonging to that land. I see that very clearly here in Cameroon and I saw it in Sudan.
I felt the "you" belong to a tribe, to a group, to Earth, didn't you? I think this is the factor that is perhaps most interesting for us to be able to work in cultural terms.
The cultural area, I worked very little, but I think it will certainly be, together with all the cultural manifestations, in handicrafts, music, literature, even football, if we can also consider the sports area, as a good area of cooperation here, above all.
So I think that this love for the Community, let's say, it's the factor that permeates so much Latin America, South America, more specifically, and Africa and it's what I feel the strongest, so much, here in Sudan and somehow in Brazil, we don't comment on it, but we have a lot of love for Brazil.
People are very patriotic, I think. On the 7th of September we see this in a very marked way. So I would say this.
(MA): Madam Ambassador, you mentioned your academic background, saying that you graduated in history and specialized in the history of Brazilian foreign relations. I was curious. When you pursued this path, did you already have in mind, or rather, were you already thinking about pursuing a diplomatic career, or did the diplomatic career come about by chance in your life?
(PL): It arose somewhat as a consequence of my aversion to mathematics, but somehow, I'm an only child, so my mother somehow guided me, my mother, my father, guided me, I owe it to them.
I think they prepared me, albeit subtly, for a diplomatic career, because from an early age I studied English, I studied French, so I think they prepared a good way for me to make a good decision.
But I think that deep down, they had this passion for diplomacy that they ended up transmitting to me and I really like what I do, I'm passionate about what I do, even though I have a lot, like a desire for architecture, I find architecture fascinating, but I learned to truly love my profession.
(MA): Madam Ambassador, speaking a little about your career path, you have attended several conferences and meetings on Corruption, Terrorism, Justice and Crime Prevention.
These themes, which are somehow interconnected, are a turning point in her life, or something that she is passionate about or that Ms. worry, especially seeing what people are experiencing today in this world?
(PL): Ah, these topics fascinate me, I'm still fascinated by them, and I've somehow channeled everything into a passion for strategy. So I think these topics permeate a strategic insertion agenda in each country.
I see here, for example, with the military, with the commander sometimes commenting, on how you visualize cooperation, if you don't take into account, both the legal aspects of a cooperation, let's say the legal aspects or containment, of respect for the compliance, conventions, agreements, memoranda of understanding, are all legal instruments.
Now the themes, the theme that unites us, unfortunately today is a somewhat negative agenda, because the securitization of the world and then the fight against all illicit, leads us to an undeniable discussion and approach to combat these themes.
So I see that there is also a huge area of cooperation here, in these areas of illicit that are fascinating. Crime, somehow, always attracts, it's not, I don't know why, but it is. We just have to look at the number of publications, of Theses that are made annually that are written annually on these topics.
So it's a topic on the international agenda, quite important, it can be a topic, also very interesting in strategic terms, for a very effective cooperation.
(MA): Madam Ambassador, at this moment, you are in charge of two African embassies, the embassy of Cameroon and, by extension, the embassy of Chad. Back in 2019, you had already assumed leadership of the embassy of Sudan. Which means that in recent years you have always worked in connection with Africa.
However, I was reading your curriculum and I noticed that you are not linked to Africa from now on, because between 2011 and 2014, you were a technical advisor for the Africa Department of the Itamaraty, or for those who do not know what Itamaraty is, is the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Brazil.
Does this mean that your passion for Africa is something that you already have, or did you learn to like Africa through your current job?
(PL): My passion for Africa comes from much earlier, from when I was a child, because my mother had a health complication and, when I must have been about 4 or 5 years old, she was saved by a doctor, at the military hospital, by an Angolan doctor.
So she always spoke very fondly of this doctor and of some… anyway, because of what he did for her that detected the problem and he treated my mother and cured her. So I've always heard since I was a child, how this Angolan doctor had transformed my mother's life and given her a second chance at life in such a difficult situation.
So I had this affection inside me and, finally, as you unfold, I was in the first class, coincidentally, when I did history and, from the History Course to the African History course, with Professor Flávio Sombra Saraiva, who is one of the greatest Africanists in Brazil today, one of the most cutting-edge researchers.
So, somehow, my destiny also became more and more associated with Africa. I've been to other posts, I've been to South Africa, in some meetings, I've been to Lusaka, I've been to Guinea-Conakry, then I've been to Sudan, so my knowledge of Sudan is 11 years.
I was the first time to accompany the Independence of South Sudan, then I came back as the second of the post, then as the head of the post. Anyway, it's a privilege to be here at Cameroun, it's a country that we know and admire, especially for football. There is this positive connection, so my passion for Africa, my attraction, shall we say, a mutual attraction, has been going on for a long time.
(MA): Madam Ambassador, during your time as Ambassador to Sudan, you fought passionately for the country and for greater involvement from Brazil and Brazilian businesses, arguing that there were many untapped opportunities, including in tourism.
Now, as ambassador for Cameroon and Chad, Ms. Will you also seek to bring that passion and bet on a greater involvement of Brazil, in these two African countries? Or in other words, what Ms. Do you think that Brazil has to offer both Cameroon and Chad and what benefits can these 2 countries and Brazil derive from this exchange?
(PL): Our presence in Sudan is still very limited, both because I think Brazilian businesspeople haven't discovered Sudan yet, and because of various situations that have created difficulties.
The first year of 2019, it was a year of 2 business missions there, the presence of the trainer with safe behavior, the Krav Maga trainer, is a program aimed at Women, so it was a very good first year. Even AfroChamber was visiting.
Then came the pandemic. Then everything was closed, then political issues prevented the resumption of initiatives to bring the two countries closer together.
I see Cameroun, with quite big possibilities. But I'm not from foreign trade, although I love foreign trade, but I see it like this, I mean, if I were a Brazilian businesswoman today, if I could sell the Cameroun product to the Brazilian businessman… I even did my homework, I have an interesting little text here, some figures.
Just to mention, for example, Cameroun is a young country, just to give you an idea, from zero to 4 years old, that is, children are 15% of the population, from 5 to 12 years old, 21,5%, from 12 to 24, 10,1% and from 25 to 34 it's 15%, so if you add it up it's 51.6% it's half, more than half of the population.
What are we doing for these sectors? I mean, do we bring shoes? In which sectors do we attack? Children's shoes, children's clothing, school supplies, backpacks, everything we produce, socks, in short, what are the products we offer for these Babies, let's say, children and pre-teens? Anything.
From 25 to 34 years old, it's an extremely consumer audience and I'm talking, in general terms, an audience that we don't count, but that we do have. Cameroun's literacy rate is almost 78%, it's a very high level, that is, people are understanding, they know what they want.
They understand what is going on in the world, they have access to information, because they know how to read, they know how to write, they know how to inform themselves. It has a female population of 51%, vain people, women, super vain, very elegant, colorful, beautiful…
Do we sell beauty products? Not. Do we sell clothing? Not. And clothing I'm talking about everything, including lingerie and everything. Not. Do we sell shoes? Not.
China manages to sell these horrible shoes that they produce, in all countries, we can't, even with the reputation we have, as big producers. I don't know where we got this reputation from? to consume? Intern consumption? I don't know.
In a little while we will also be absorbing these Chinese shoes, because I have already seen that they have flip flops on the market. So, what is the focus that we want to give to our trade with Cameroun? We want to face France, the European Union as a whole… We won't be able to.
There is no way you can deal with Chinese products, unless you work on educating the people they go to, they will obviously understand what is a good product and what is a fifth-rate product.
Can we not work to our potential? In the sense of asserting the quality of our products, especially focused on these opportunity niches? I think it might be the case that we rethink what our agenda is, what we want and also stop underestimating it a little… there is no. It's just agricultural produce. Because? Why only agricultural?
Here you have a population, you have shops selling authentic French clothes and shoes, that is, here you understand very well what is good and what is not good, what I want and what I don't want, what I I will consume and what I will not consume. I guess it's a matter of our choice, isn't it? What to sell, right?
Anyway, I talked a lot, extended myself, but I think that's more or less what I understand how we can make a leap in quality in the exchange.
(MA): Going back to what you said earlier about Sudan, women, and Krav Maga, I know you promoted training in safe behavior and self-defense for women and girls in Sudan, fostering female empowerment.
I personally am also a trainer and practitioner of Krav Maga, so, more than most, I understand the need for all of us and in particular women, to have basic notions of self-defense, it is extremely important and this goes a little apart , people don't realize it.
But, nevertheless, we are talking about Africa, where, unfortunately, the woman continues to be completely devalued. Do you think it is possible to transmit this knowledge to African women, to give them a sense that they are more than what they want them to be, creating, perhaps, some kind of program for their valorization?
(PL): I think so. The issue of female empowerment is a matter of education. And I think it's a process. It's not achieved overnight; it's a continuous process of valuing empowerment.
I see, for example, for the short, there were 2 times that Vanessa, who is the President of the South American Federation of Krav Maga and was my trainer, in Sudan she trained for the first time, everyone was amazed and we couldn't talk of Krav Maga, because it has Israeli origin and the country is Muslim.
So we adopted the nomenclature and program that Vanessa developed, Safe Behavior for Women. So she got to train the second time, 2700 girls in all.
It's an expressive number and I want to bring Vanessa here, because the opportunities are day to day. The advantage of Krav Maga is not that you need a weapon to defend yourself, you need your knee, your foot, your hand.
So it's something completely doable and it's something that already differentiates your behavior, you feel naturally empowered, owner of your body, so you can be, let's say, offended or subjected to some kind of sycophant in the middle of the street, but you he can defend himself and he can even decide not to defend himself.
It's a decision that safe behavior gives you, you will feel empowered. And I think so, all these actions manage, little by little, to transform the lives of many girls and young women and even older women.
For example, in Nigeria, a program is currently being developed, not for Krav Maga, but for self-defense, in Women from the countryside, they are the ones who are usually more vulnerable, because they go to collect firewood, they go to fetch water and then the harassment starts. it gives in a way… until the finally it is not.
Rape is, as a rule, what happens in more remote areas, outside the cities, and these women are managing to defend themselves and become aware of their role, valuing themselves, so I think it's all a process and I think the process not clearly part, part of education.
Now, suddenly, programs and initiatives such as safe behavior and self-defense can contribute to this empowerment reaching other levels and other levels.
(MA): Madam Ambassador, to conclude this part of the interview, I would like to ask you one last question. Clearly, you are quite concerned about the lack of female voices in the world, and I imagine that as a woman you must have had some difficulties with your male colleagues, even to get to where you are today.
Unfortunately, this problem is not just Brazilian or African, it is the whole world, but Africa is far behind in this need for women's liberation. Based on her experience and what she has learned in the countries where Ms. She went through, what she thinks can or should be done, to change that paradigm.
(PL): I think everything has to be done very carefully, because it's also a cultural issue. I mean, what I see, for example, and I've commented on this sometimes with some people who say; poor Muslim women with that veil.
Poor why? They feel good about it. It's our eyes that think they're very unhappy, but suddenly they're not. Some will be unhappy with or without a veil. Anyway, it's something they saw their mother, grandmother, with the veil, it's something natural, it's part of it.
And we also talk about Africa, but for example, I served in a consulate in South America, where we served Brazilian women, married to locals who were daily subjected to beatings. And the place was not culturally negative, but it was just like that, man has that right.
It's like in other countries, where you think the brother has the right to beat the sister, so it's an approximation, maybe we have to be very careful about what we see and how we feel and interpret . Sometimes people are just fine. Sometimes no.
That's where you can help, those who don't feel well, it's not those who are well, those who lived with this reality forever. As a woman who says, no I need to depend on my husband, even though I won't have to go out, look for a job, I won't have to take the bus. Ultimately, it's a choice.
Can she congratulate herself on this choice? Maybe, all of a sudden, she is very happy, cooking her food there, arriving home, her husband, with the children… each one sets her own course.
I think that, in general, what we have to fight are inequalities, inhumane treatments, abusive treatments. So it's treating the psychological side of these women.
Now, what is the cultural aspect, you have to be very careful, I think, not to invade what is culturally accepted, because otherwise it is an interference that can cause more problems than trying to help these women.
So it is and very tactfully and I think it is education, as I said before, that opens these paths, as you have higher levels of education, the greater the opportunities for women to go further.
(MA): Yes, respect for culture is extremely important, isn't it?
(PL): I think so, I think so.
(MA): Madam Ambassador, thank you very much for granting us this interview, but before we say goodbye, please remember our challenge. We ask that you choose a recently published news item from our Mais Afrika website and comment on it.
The news story that Ambassador Patricia Lima chose was published on July 31, 2022. It's somewhat obvious which news story was chosen, as this day is African Women's Day.
Mrs. Ambassador. Can you, then, first explain to us, if there are still any doubts, why you chose this news and, then, as challenged, comment on it?
(PL): Identification, as you said, is natural with the theme of gender and… I think these days are important and serve to be celebrated, remembered, and on these days, we should celebrate the achievements and what is still lacking.
This year, in Sudan, I celebrated Africa Day and I think it's always good for you to remember these days, because we have so much of Africa, in our blood, in our customs, in our food, so it's good for us to always remember where we come from came, didn't it? And we Brazilians, I mean, before we are women, we are daughters, we are mothers, we are professionals and the African woman is also all that.
We cannot forget that we are not alone. I think it's very beautiful, very rhetorical, when in Brazil we hear, I think it's so beautiful, Mamã Africa… yes it's beautiful, but what do you know about Mamã Africa?
So, these opportunities are interesting for us to show a little bit of what Africa is in its positive sense, in its most beautiful, most beautiful sense and what we carry in us, is what we try to at least preserve in us. It is the little bit of Africa that is so dear to us and that, all of a sudden, makes us all feel so good when we are on the continent. I think that's it.
(MA): By the way, as they say, she has airtime. If the Ambassador wants to talk about any topic she considers relevant that wasn't covered in the interview, she can take advantage of it; I'm sure our followers will enjoy hearing from her.
(PL): I wanted to thank you for the opportunity to finally share some of my thoughts, right? As the head of the post here, there's very little that can be done, in the end, sometimes the work goes by very quickly. I see that the three and a half years in Sudan have passed and I remember when I arrived there.
I've been here for almost a month now, so time goes by really fast today, so let's try to print quality at work. I'm not saying that there was no quality before, obviously, the colleagues who preceded me left their marks here, thank God, above all, they created the conditions for me to arrive and be very well received.
What I have been. People always speak with great affection and enthusiasm about Brazil, I certainly credit my colleagues who were here before me.
And my intention is to persevere, in this work, in this good work that they started, to move forward and, in a few days, depending on the time that passes by, pass on to my successor, a good name from Brazil, if God wants a good state of our exports, a greater diversification of our bilateral trade agenda.
Who knows, more Portuguese courses, more Portuguese classes, we have a fantastic teacher here, from Cameroun who lived in Brazil for many years, it is a privilege to have her here with us. And who knows, more football, more jewelry, more make-up products, more lipstick, more eyeshadow, more children's clothing, more children's shoes, here at Cameroun. It will only give me immense satisfaction.
When we come abroad and, above all, here, I remember that I was very moved to see a street child, in Sudan and written on the back, Neimar.
I don't even have great sympathy for Neimar, but I thought it was so beautiful to see the Brazilian football shirt, it's a symbol of Brazil and that makes me emotional. So that we are more present in Cameroun, because I think they deserve us to open a more intense two-way street, that's all.
(MA): From my side, it was a pleasure to be here with you and I believe that whoever sees/reads the interview will also feel the same. Therefore, on behalf of all of us, Mais Afrika and our followers, I thank you for your availability and… let's hope we can have another conversation in the future. See you soon.
(PL): I will be available, hugs to all, until another opportunity.
(MA): Thank you, see you soon.
What did you think of this interview? Do you get to know Brazil's potential better? We want to know your opinion, do not hesitate to comment and if you liked the article, share and give a “like/like”.
Picture: © 2022 Francisco Lopes-Santos
